Reimagining Success: Finding Joy and Purpose Through Change with Natalie Ledwell

[00:00:03] Hello, welcome to Leading with Purpose, where elevating the consciousness of humanity is an inside job. We're bringing together visionary leaders to learn from their journey and shed light on our paths to leading with purpose, both business and life. The next step on your soulful journey starts right now. Hello, today's guest is someone I've been walking alongside for more than a decade.

[00:00:27] I first met Natalie Ledwell back in 2013 at Cynthia Kersey's Unstoppable Mastermind hosted by Bob Proctor. And I knew right away that I was in the presence of someone who doesn't just talk about possibility, she lives it. And since then our paths have crossed many different times. We've done a lot of different things together. In fact, Natalie spoke at our very first Personal Transformation Summit back in 2013.

[00:00:56] And then at our Soulful Leadership Experience in 2020. And she's contributed to two of our Soulful Leadership number one bestselling anthologies. Thank you for being a part of that, Natalie. And Natalie is also the co-founder of Mind Movies, which of course we'll talk about, which has reached more than 10 million people worldwide. She's a bestselling author of Never In Your Wildest Dreams, a book like no other. I highly recommend it.

[00:01:22] Host of the podcast, Not Over, Just Different. And creator of Personal Growth Studies, a curriculum helping young people in the U.S. and Liberia build self-esteem and a vision for their future. And in 2020, she was knighted by the Orthodox Order of St. John for her humanitarian work. It's been over a year, I believe, since we last spoke.

[00:01:46] And her name just came up recently, just this week, in fact, for my interview with mutual friend Melanie Benson. So I'm very excited to hear what's emerging for her now. Natalie, welcome to Leading with Purpose. Hi. Great to catch up with you again, Mark. And I'm looking forward to our chat today. You know, most people know my story and the Mind Movie story and all that kind of thing. And I'm like, oof, baby, I have a whole new story.

[00:02:16] So for anybody who may not know the story, what are Mind Movies? Yeah. So a Mind Movie is the movie version of a vision board. So we help people get clear about what they want by articulating that in affirmations, which is important because, you know, you need to write everything out positively using the right words and in present tense. Because these are the words that you're going to use to then imagine as if it's already happening in your mind.

[00:02:44] Then you have images that match the affirmations. And then the secret sauce is the music that you add because more importantly than what you see when you're visualizing is what you feel. So music is perfect to being able to create the right kind of emotion to help to infuse your visualizations with. So it's a visualization tool in essence. But it's a really cool one. It's a really, really cool one. And it's been around for a long time and it still works.

[00:03:14] It's a timeless tool that you created really around the time that people were just learning about the law of attraction and the secret that just come out. Or I guess it might have even been before the secret came out. No, no. It was after the secret, probably a year after when the guests, the speakers for the secret were on the Oprah. And everyone said, oh, finish your vision boards. And we're like, oh, interesting. Let's present them with this. So there was perfect timing. Absolutely.

[00:03:43] And that was a big part of it was the joint venture piece of it. The secret was a giant joint venture. I don't know if people realize that that's what was different because people had been talking about the law of attraction for some time. But the marketing of it was phenomenal. And the same thing with mind movies. You've partnered with just amazing people. I think we said, was it 10 million? Well, we've reached 10 million people, over 10 million people with mind movies.

[00:04:11] But we have thousands of affiliates. We even have some JV partners and affiliates that supported us in our very first launch back in 2008. So we've been around for a long time. And we understand that you treat your affiliates like silkworms. You make sure you nurture them. They are the most important relationships that you have in your business. And they're your lifebloods. So you've got to pay attention there. And do the right thing. Do what you promise.

[00:04:41] Always deliver. Absolutely. It's interesting because you were in two of our soulful leadership anthologies. The first one was talking about what it looks like to play a bigger game when you're running a seven-figure business or an eight-figure business. It was a $10 million business. And you're still looking at what does it look like even from there. And then the second book, you and Glenn, your ex-husband, wrote a chapter together of what it looks like to create partnerships strong enough to thrive even through divorce. Yeah.

[00:05:09] And you guys have been running this as a partnership. And that was one of the things that I learned from both of you about each knowing your own role and trusting the other person to do that role. A big part of it with Glenn is around that management. And that was one of the things is that you always treated all of the JVs like gold. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, all of our partnerships are not just with our JV partners and with each other, but also with our team.

[00:05:39] You know, there's a lot to be said about making sure that you create opportunities for your team to also be able to always be able to share their opinions and their views and to welcome it in, to, you know, to make sure that you're, you know, playing them compliments and letting them know that they're doing a great job. I mean, for years, and we still do again, we have what we call a stand-up meeting once a week. And we have all the team come in. We're all Zooming in now because we used to do it in person.

[00:06:09] I was going to bring that up. People are all over the world. All over the world, yes. And so everyone shares a challenge for that week, a win for that week, and someone else on the team that they're grateful for. So it really opens up this conversation of this is what I'm struggling with. So that someone, other team member go, wait, I think I have the solution to that. And for us to really, you know, thank other members on our team specifically for things that are really helping us make our job a whole lot easier.

[00:06:39] That brings me all the way back to 2013. It was my second summit, the Personal Transformation Summit. I was finding out what is the number one tool, and yours was always gratitude. And so being grateful for the people on your team really helps to create cohesion and appreciation. Everybody would like to be appreciated. Yeah, and genuine gratitude. It's not just, you know, I'm grateful for you. I'm like, this is why I'm grateful for you. And thank you specifically for this action or this thing that you did for me. And you call that a team stand-up?

[00:07:08] We call it stand-up because normally you stand up because it's supposed to be quick. You're supposed to go around the circle pretty quickly. Unfortunately, no one stands up anymore. We sit in front of my computer screen. So we should name it something different. But I have the stand-up desk, but that's in my other office. So yeah. Well, as I kind of mentioned at the beginning, it's been over a year.

[00:07:33] And so I appreciate getting to catch up for you like live and record it in front of our audience. I always enjoy our conversations. We've talked a lot about law of attraction stuff and also lots of stuff like just with going on in the industry. And so I'm curious with all the different shifts that have been going through the transformation industry, what's emerging for you right now? And what's lighting you out these days? Right. Well, it has been a wild and crazy ride. I think the pandemic was obviously the beginning of it.

[00:08:02] A lot of people had to pivot in the pandemic, especially our friends that are speakers and authors and that kind of thing. And then that seemed to be short-lived. And then there was this steady decline. And there was a number of things that contributed to it. You know, a lot of people's ads, their paid media wasn't working and it was getting quite expensive. You know, because of that, there was no new blood coming onto the email lists.

[00:08:30] And so we're still obviously still promoting each other and supporting each other. But now we're starting to cannibalize the list a little bit because, you know, it's the same people and we've never had to create new offers before because there was always new people coming in. So, you know, deliverability, the emails went down. People started going to ChatGPT for advice because of the changes in behavior online during the pandemic. There's a trust deficit right now.

[00:08:56] So, you know, people have to know you so much more before they will impart in money, which, you know, if you had Melanie Benson on last week, you'll know that I truly believe that Substack is the best place to be able to do that. And so, and then we had this influx of COVID coaches who, you know, I know can market coaching. I don't know if they can deliver coaching, but it really diluted the term coach as well. So there's, you know, I'm part of a couple of transformation leader groups and we've been

[00:09:25] having these regular meetings and we go, okay, these are the challenges that we're facing. We can see that this is what's going on. I'm like, all right, what are the opportunities? Because there's always opportunities. There's always something different. And what we've realized people are really yearning for right now is human connection. And it's the way to AI proof our businesses. Amen. Because knowledge has no value anymore.

[00:09:53] So, you know, you can't ask anything. It's like, you know. So before when, you know, you go, oh, you also got the community that you can be a part of. That used to be the bonus. That's the lead now. People want to be connected. Anything that I deliver now that I'm looking at delivering in the future will be life. On Zoom, but I'm also starting to do retreats. I've never done retreats before. But I'm like, huh.

[00:10:19] You know, I just came back from a retreat in Peru that I co-led with my girlfriend, Carol Allen. 17 women in, you know, traveling to Machu Picchu and climbing and doing workshops and things. It was incredible. Next week, I'm in Mexico doing one with my girlfriend, Susan Patrick. The real joy retreat, you know, all about getting back to joy and getting back to, you know, what's making us feel good.

[00:10:44] Because we're so unbalanced and our nervous system is just so fried because of these social media platforms and the media and everything else that's going on. So, you know, in-person, live content, community, that's really where I think we're going right now. And helping people to emotionally regulate and get back to what makes them feel good. Because we're all, you know, been on Struggle Street, honestly. Yeah.

[00:11:13] Agreed. And I think that that might be part of the challenge. Some people talk about the golden handcuffs when you're in corporate world where, you know, things are comfortable and easy. So, it's hard to leave. Well, in our world, a lot of people have had systems and structures that have worked for a long time. And how do you change them? How do you turn the ship around? Melanie and I were talking about this around alignment and figuring out, you know, who are you being right now? Who do you want? What is the vision for yourself? Yeah. I'm curious for you.

[00:11:42] We talked about what it looks like to play at the next level in your business. And I've seen what you've done as a humanitarian and really just trying to lift people up. I'm curious, what is your vision looking like over the next 10 years? Well, it's interesting that you ask because I have had a dark night of the soul this year. You know, like I said, and it's not just for all of the reasons that I just mentioned, we are not immune to our business struggling.

[00:12:13] And we got to quite a dire situation, which meant I also personally financially was in a dire situation. You know, we have turned things around. Things are great. We're on the up and up and we've got a vision for the future. But for a moment there, we had to keep downsizing the team. Glenn and I weren't getting paid. You know, it's like, oh, okay. I had a moment this year where I got down to $300 in my bank account and I'm like, all right, all right, now.

[00:12:41] We need to sort something out here. You've gone many, many businesses over like decades. Yeah. It's a moment that I had never found myself. And I've never had to worry about money and all that kind of thing since I can remember. I've never had to worry about money. So, you know, I found myself in this moment and on top of that, you know, I ended a six-year relationship with someone. And then, you know, my mom passed away and then has to go back to Australia.

[00:13:08] And it was like all these things that kind of had just come, you know, pushing down on me. And I realized that, you know, it's just a moment in time. And even though I was, you know, in a dark place for a few weeks, it was only a few weeks. And I was able to pull myself out of that and go, okay, now, come on, you've got this. You know what to do.

[00:13:31] And I think having that moment where I got to go back to Australia and I had a couple of few days myself where I could really sit in the inquiry of, all right, so, you know, and here is the other thing that our challenge is because our, you know, our original audience are aging out. You know, we've been doing this for 20 years and these people are like in their 80s and, you know,

[00:13:53] and we're trying to market to that audience when we need to be marketing to a completely different audience, a younger audience. And so those old school ways of marketing haven't worked. So I had to ask myself, well, I know I've been teaching Law of Attraction for 20 years and it's been successful. And now I'm at this moment where I get to not have to, but I get to choose how I'm going to move forward differently moving forward.

[00:14:23] Because teaching Law of Attraction for another 20 years does not blow my hair back. I'm like, I want to do something different. But how do I, through the, you know, mind movies and the tools and everything that we have, who do I want to serve? Like what really makes my heart sing and what is my passion? And so I went through a whole series of questions, you know, things like, well, you know, what am I tolerating in my life right now that I don't want to do anymore? Or where am I saying yes where I really want to say no?

[00:14:54] You know, because I'm a yes girl and I find myself getting myself in trouble all the time. Now you need to learn no every once in a while. But then go, you know, like who am I? Who do I, who am I showing up as? And especially through going through that, you know, turbulent time earlier this year. And believe me, it's not like I'm the only one. Like everyone I know has a version of that story. You know, and touch wood, my health is great. So, you know, and then, you know, I look at all the blessings.

[00:15:23] Well, this is an opportunity to reinvent and to relook, you know, towards the future. And, you know, what came out of this line of inquiry for me was I really want to work with women who are at this midlife who don't know what this next chapter is yet. Or they do know what they want for the next chapter, but they don't know quite how to do it or why they haven't got it yet.

[00:15:49] You know, and I've been working with women who have got these amazing jobs that pay really well and go, look, I hate it. I want to do something different. I want to give. I want to contribute. But, you know, it's hard stepping away from something that's so guaranteed. So, you know, when I'm looking at working with women, it's really helping us, you know, get back all those limiting beliefs and all the things that when we get to this age, because sometimes our mojo takes a bit of a hit.

[00:16:16] You know, and I certainly felt that because I'm like, you know, we were the juggernauts. We were one of the biggest companies in our space. And we've got to this point where it's, you know, we nearly had to get rid of our entire team. So it's like, I know that we've been able to turn around, which is great. But what it took for us to do that was really having to get honest and go, okay, how do we do things differently?

[00:16:44] Because this is not a pivot like it was in 2020. This is a reimagining of how we market ourselves, who we are, and how we deliver our message. Everyone in our industry is getting called to do the same, you know? I love that it's not a pivot, a reimagining. And a rebuilding from foundation around alignment. Yeah. And the self-discovery of who you really are.

[00:17:13] And again, you know, you being the juggernaut that buying movies is, and that, yeah, it can affect everybody. Yeah. And that it takes this, this recalibration, not a pivot, but a reimagining of what's possible. And it's interesting because, again, I know that you went through the same thing when you and Glenn divorced. You were still running a company together, but you were this power couple. And now you were a power woman also running a business together, you know? So there's that shift.

[00:17:41] And even with the book, Never in Your Wildest Dreams. And it was a very creative approach to how you shared the book and how you shared this transformational process. So I love that, again, you're being very transparent about what's needed in the industry and what each individual, anybody listening right now, can probably relate to this about some type of need for recalibration to what's truly aligned. Yeah.

[00:18:07] Well, and you think about it, I mean, we could all sit around and go, oh, this isn't working and that isn't working, blah, blah, blah. But let's be honest, that's the nature of the beast. You know, like that's business. We haven't quite seen it to this scale, I don't think. And, you know, and even with Glenn and I, I'm like, Glenn and I have been business partners for 30 years, you know, on all different kinds of businesses. And I'm like, dude, I know we've been in holes before, but damn, this one's a big one.

[00:18:35] I think it's taken us a while to figure out what's next. But thank God we have. So, you know, and it's also, I think what was most important is having support. Like when I had my dark moment, believe me, I wasn't reaching out. I kind of went to ground. I wasn't talking to anyone, you know, and I was trying to figure it out. Like I'm trying to think my way and figure my way out of it, which was never going to happen because that's not how you get out of it.

[00:19:02] You know, you get out of it by first going, you know, who am I getting into that higher frequency emotion? Being grateful that even though this is tough, the more you're focusing on it, the more you stay there and make it even worse. I had to get out into the gratitude and into the high thing. But in that dark moment, I didn't want to talk to anyone because I'm thinking if one of my girlfriends tells me to breathe or to meditate, I'm going to sock them in the face because I'm like, I don't want to hear it.

[00:19:30] Right now, I'm just wallowing in my, you know, in my thing. But as soon as I started talking about it and being honest about it and sharing, then support came from all over the place. You know, and my girlfriends kept reminding me, they go, Nat, you're a badass. You know, you can do this, you can do this, and we'll support you in anything that you do.

[00:19:50] So, you know, that's why even more than ever, it is important that we surround ourselves with people that can, you know, lift us up and support us and, you know, be that sounding block for us as well. I love that. That brings us back to like where you started off with around our offers used to include community as a bonus. Yes. And now community is the lead. You also mentioned about how a lot of our audiences, the people who first started Law of Attraction, a lot of just personal development are aging out.

[00:20:19] Our dear friend Bob Proctor and many others have passed on. And you talk about the use and things right now look very scary. The world is shaken up. And like you said, that's life. We get past that. We've got resilience. I'm curious for you if you see kind of a path forward or because this is a beginning of it, this idea of like recalibrating. And how do we bring more young people into leadership?

[00:20:48] Because again, I know it's a part that you do a lot with young people. We have 16-year-old twins, Renee and I. And when I see the people that are in our community and their children, I feel very positive. Then I see the numbers of other people out there that are in not only a trust deficit but in isolation and everything else. And how do you see youth stepping into leadership, especially with all the tools that you guys have offered?

[00:21:15] Well, I mean, I was watching Bill Maher the other day and he had Mike Rowe on as a guest. And Mike was – and they were talking about this statistic, which was scary as that there are millions of young men who are unemployed. But basically all of them are not even looking for a job because they're spending all their time in front of a screen.

[00:21:46] Now, I know that Meta has been brought to task and lost a pretty significant court case. They have to pay billions of dollars to 47 different states here in the US. And they have to change a number of features on the platform because they got busted knowing that they were damaging children's mental health. They knew it. That's the thing. And didn't give a shit. So there are some changes that are coming down the pipeline.

[00:22:16] But I think that – and, you know, we have those kind of stats and things that are, you know, bad there. But then you have, you know, like your children. And I've met many young people who kind of come in with this, you know, this understanding. Like, yeah, you know, the divine's got us universal thing, blah, blah, blah. And they're looking at things positively. And there is a huge number of those people in this next generation as well.

[00:22:45] So it's not all bad. But I think that how we help this next generation is getting them together and getting them away from those goddamn screens, you know. And creating spaces where they can come in, exchange ideas, share ideas, you know, be with each other and do something that's not, you know, porn or a video game that's just making their brains go to mush. So – Or not an AI girlfriend. Right.

[00:23:16] Right. So that goes back to, again, the youth and leaders. Entrepreneurship I see as an important piece, especially with AI and people not looking for jobs. It's very nice to – being an entrepreneur and being an example for my children that they don't expect to rely on another company or somebody else. Because even people I know that have had very secure jobs in Microsoft, that's their biggest thing is that they're all afraid of layoffs and fear. And being an entrepreneur has lots of risks and challenges.

[00:23:45] But it also creates freedom and opportunity. How do you see that? Like I love the idea of community. And how do we bring young people together outside of technology? Well, I don't think we can do it. We can inspire young people to do it themselves. I mean, no one's going to come to a room with you or me, to be honest. They're not relating to us.

[00:24:13] But when we can, you know, help them and support them to do it for themselves, that's where the answer is. So, yeah. And, you know, and I mean, AI, I see it – I mean, the way that I see it is that, you know, it's helping me to do my job in a quarter of the time, still reach as many if not more people, and then I get to live a life. Which means I show up as a better teacher.

[00:24:42] I mean, it sounds like a good deal to me. Now, I know there's some scary parts of how it's starting to think for itself and, you know, do different things. And I know they're putting some guardrails up around it, and it's a very big conversation. But like anything, we get to create our own reality. So, there can be these things that are happening, but what we want to be focusing on is how immediate reality, we know what it is that we're creating here.

[00:25:11] Because when we can do that and show up as that example, then that's probably the best influence we can have on this younger generation and our own generation. Well, that leads me into my core question. This is a podcast called Leading with Purpose. Mm-hmm. Well, what does leading with purpose mean to you, Natalie? Well, I'm a leader in a couple of different areas. I'm a leader in our transformation leader groups.

[00:25:39] And for me, you know, the best leaders aren't those that can delegate or that, you know, can bark orders or whatever. The best leaders are those that inspire people to want to follow them. Mm-hmm. And that's what I aspire to be all the time, by leading by example, by listening to people, by, you know, implementing ideas, you know,

[00:26:04] by creating space where we can, you know, be honest and real with each other. And I do that by example. As you know, I've been pretty vulnerable on this. Well, when I'm with my friends, I'm vulnerable. And, but I do it because, you know, I think there's many of us in our industry that are, you know, one pony shows. And when things aren't going well, we take it personally or we get shame or we get embarrassed around it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:26:32] No, no need for you to be embarrassed because look at what happened to us, you know. So it's happening to all of us. So, you know, really, you know, creating a space to inspire. When I'm looking at community and things that, you know, leading like these women that I would be wanting to work with, I think the same rules apply. Be honest. Be open. Be vulnerable to a point. Like I don't believe in just going, this is my story. Blah.

[00:27:00] You know, I remember someone told me every story has a point. Every point has a story. So I don't do it to be, you know, indulgent. I do it to help illustrate a point or a lesson or something like that. But I tell you that experience I had earlier this year, it humbled me, humbled me a lot. So I have a lot more empathy and compassion that are going through tough times, you know.

[00:27:30] Well, that's such a perfect response to the whole inspiring because we, I also have a lot of people that are talking about, you know, I give people everything they need. I can't make them do the work. I lead the horse to water and you can't make them drink. And we can't, we can't make them do it, but we can inspire them to want to. And I love that idea of you're walking your talk and people are seeing you walk your talk and like, oh, I want to be more like that. Exactly. That's the key, you know.

[00:27:57] And also making sure that everyone is seen and heard. That's very important. And I think right now, because there is a loneliness epidemic happening on the planet right now. Absolutely. And I've started doing some personal coaching, but I coach, I did pod coaching. So I have groups of six to eight women. So it's a small group. Everyone gets, you know, coached, but we have a, you know, a curriculum. It's a 12-week thing.

[00:28:25] But I want to make sure that everyone gets to be seen and heard. Everyone gets to tell their story. Everyone gets to have their own transformation and that we get to celebrate, you know, the breakthroughs and the transformations that are happening. So that seems to be my little sweet spot at the moment too, because I'm used to teaching, you know, masses. And I'm like, I really want to be hands-on and granular and really, you know, being more personalized with people.

[00:28:51] Well, I don't think there's any way you can do that more than going on a retreat to Peru and hiking together and eating together and all of that. You have more of those planned as well? Yeah. So the Real Joy Retreat is next week down in Playa Dole Common. So my girlfriend, Susan Patrick and I, because I'm like, you know, I want to lean into this. It's, you know, with my mimmies, it's like a big ship that we have to move. And so I'm like, well, I want to start trying this out anyway.

[00:29:18] So I have a Substack page called The Joy Jolt, which Susan and I do together. So we do our podcast there. And so the retreat that we're doing is in Playa Dole Common. And Susan's been living there for 10 years with her husband and her kids. And we're doing sound bowl healing in the cenotes. And, you know, it's just, it's going to be luxurious and amazing.

[00:29:42] And, you know, women will go home with a plan on how to, you know, infuse joy into their everyday activities and a plan of where their future and where they want to, you know, go forward. So, yeah. So we got to, I've got one next week. And then we're going to put together the calendar for 2027 because I have a feeling I'm going to really enjoy doing these things. I feel it. I feel your joy. I feel you lighting up. And that was where we started the questions like, what's lighting you up? That feels like the thing. Yeah.

[00:30:11] Human connection in person, creating transformation together and celebrating. I love it. I want to drop your link. You said the Substack is Joy Jolt? Thejoyjolt.com. So it'll take you to our Substack page. Great. And we can put a link down there for Mind Movies. People can go there and check that out. Are there any other things that we should do? You said, are you still doing your podcast?

[00:30:38] It's on hiatus for the moment, but I'll probably start that back up again in a few months. Part of the conversations, I think, that'll be coming out. Yeah, yeah. That'll be exciting. Perfect. Perfect. Well, any last words to anybody that's listening right now that you want to use to inspire them to take action? Yeah. You know, after my little low point earlier this year, I've realized that joy and the journey is the point.

[00:31:06] We're always going to be moving on the way to something, but we've got to enjoy every moment on the journey. So I've started adding different practices. And when I get up in the morning, like I know I have a certain amount of work to do that day, but I'm like, what will bring me joy right now? What will make me feel good right now? And I do that first. I still get work done. Actually, I'm a little bit more productive because I'm feeling great, feeling a great nude. And even at night, my sister gave me a little antique candle holder.

[00:31:34] So I light a candle each time when I go to bed and I do my gratefuls and send my blessings to my family and celebrate the wins for that day. So, you know, any way that you can infuse your day with joy, you know, as much as you can will help us handle anything that this world can throw at us. I love it. That's what we need more in the world right now and bring more joy. Yeah. Beautiful. Now, I love and appreciate you so very much.

[00:32:03] Thank you for sharing so openly with us and being such a beautiful role model for what leadership is. Thank you, darling. Now it's been great. I really appreciate. And I love talking about this subject specifically because I think so many of us are going through it as not just women, men as well. Me. And we're all paddling upstream the best we can. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about it. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And for everybody listening, we'd love to see your comments, questions. We'll make sure to respond to anything that you leave below.

[00:32:32] Do check out the links that we placed for Natalie and check out that sub stack. I'll see you there. Bye for now. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Leading with Purpose. We hope today's conversation has inspired you to lead with purpose and make a meaningful impact. If you're ready to discover where you stand on your leadership journey, I invite you to take the Soulful Leadership Assessment.

[00:32:56] It's a powerful tool to help you align with your leadership style and your true purpose. Simply visit the link in the show notes and get started. Don't forget to subscribe to the show. And if you feel inspired, please rate and review the podcast so we continue having these deep, full, insightful conversations with you. Until next time, keep leading from the heart and creating the change that you want to see in the world.