Video Tips from a Professional Videographer | S3E005

If you're tired of hiding your brilliance behind stage fright, scripts, or playing it safe, then you are in the perfect place.

This is the Inspired Speaker podcast, and I am your host, Danielle Benzon, professional rebel, voice coach, and your guide to speaking with confidence, charisma, and zero BS.

Around here we don't chase perfection. We choose connection.

So grab a hot beverage, warm up those vocal cords, and get ready to fall wildly in love with the sound of your voice.

Let's get inspired.

Welcome, everyone. Today is a very special day. I have a very special guest, Jennifer Shanse, of Upperstory film. We go way back.

Jan and I met pretty much when I was starting my business, and she was the first person to teach me.

I mean, I'd done some kind of film stuff from an active point of view, but I didn't really understand from the filmography, from the tech point of view.

And she gave me such a solid grounding in understanding how all these things work, and helping me kind of not make an idiot of myself on camera.

So I have a lot to thank Jen for, and she taught me so much. In fact, it sounds like she's taught me so much that I've forgotten some of the things that you've taught me.

So this is going to be very interesting today, but today we're talking about how the technical side affects you as a speaker.

So if you are a podcaster or if you are a content creator, the technical side of things is important.

And I'm not saying you have to do your own tech. I'm not saying you have to do your own editing.

But you do need to understand how it works in order to make you easier to make look good.

We want to make you look as good as possible.

So there are a few elements and concepts that you need to understand in order to look your best, to do what you do best, so that they can do what they do best.

So this is what we're talking about today. Thank you so much for being here today, Jen.

Oh, thank you for having me. And that's right, the foundation, the understanding, just going in, going into your filming, just knowing those basics can elevate you so easily.

And just before we started, while we were chitchatting, before we started recording, we were talking about how those, was it before?

There's four elements that stay the same that you have to pay attention to no matter what.

There's sound, lighting, framing, and set deck.

Okay, so those are the four things that are always going to matter.

And everything pretty much falls under those four things.

So it's not so complicated. You've only got four things to remember.

They are important. And what I love, what I learned from Jen, is that your sound quality is more important than your image quality.

Can you talk a little bit to that, Jen?

Yeah, your sound, I don't want to say that image isn't important, but I do want to say that when it comes down to if you've got a problem with your sound and you've got a problem with your image,

people will overlook a little bit of a blur or a little bit of that, but they will not overlook bad sound.

If they can't understand what you're saying, they're not going to stick around and try and figure it out if you've got a buzz or a lawnmower.

Zoom has wonderful filters. Thank you, Zoom.

If they can't understand what you're saying, and it's a struggle, because then you're constantly there, like, what's going...

If they're fighting it, if they can't get it, they're not going to keep watching.

Visuals, though. It's funny, actually. I've seen a lot of people filming with a giant microphone in front of them on the desk.

And I'm not a big fan of that. It's like, whatever. But you know what? Five seconds later and I've forgotten it.

They're talking about something interesting. I don't care if they've got a microphone in front of them. I want to know what they're saying.

I think a lot of people aren't using that microphone. It's there for set deck.

Because what I have noticed is when we're podcasting, any time you're doing an interview, if you're solo, it's different.

But if you are doing an interview, as soon as you've got a desk microphone, if you're not in a sound studio, that microphone is actually not the best idea.

Because we have so many reflective surfaces that create echo and that kind of thing.

It's actually better, unless you have a professional sound studio, it's actually better to have a headset.

And, like, please, not one of those, you know, iPhones with the wire thing.

Like, this kind of headset, or just broken, but this kind of headset.

That kind of thing is best because you want the sound to be off as far as the room goes.

And it only needs to be going in your ear. Otherwise things can get really crazy really quickly.

But do you remember the reason you told me, I don't know if this is true, but you told me a reason why sound is more important than visuals. Do you remember?

Well, your eye is used to seeing blur. Like, when you glance around the room or around, you're always seeing blur.

Like, you're just generally used to, like, filtering that kind of thing out.

So your eye will see a bit of blur or whatever and just be like, okay, that's normal.

But sound, like, we expect to be able to hear things crystal clear.

And if you're fighting that, that's where you run into your issues.

This is just fascinating. It's science. So visually, we're constantly filling in the gaps and, like, aggregating things.

And so we're used to it.

Oh, yeah. Your world is always kind of fun.

Yeah, totally.

Ah, I love the science of it. It's so fun.

And it is unfortunate because sound is one of the things that is the hardest to get right.

And I know I'm still on a journey to get my sound right. And, you know, we're doing the best we can.

It is something you grow into. Don't expect to be perfect right out the gate.

But it should be your first focus, I think, that getting that sound really clean,

especially since many podcasts are still listened to in audio only.

Not as many as before, but a lot of podcasts are still listening to audio only.

So if you're doing that kind of speaking, the audio is the most important thing.

And we often just kind of think it's taking care of us.

But there's so many little things.

There's so many little things.

And test. I guess my biggest piece of advice to somebody starting out is test different microphones

and see how it picks up your specific space.

Like once you've chosen kind of where you're going to do this, there's different types of microphones.

One will, you know, collect kind of everything. It's not omnipresent.

One's a directional. It'll go right at you.

You've got your little, your headsets. See what they pick up.

See if they're picking up noise in the line in your computer and from outside.

Yes. Yes.

And there's always noise hiding somewhere.

And this is another reason why I love headsets because as soon as you have a tabletop mic,

as soon as you touch your table or you touch your notes,

and you don't realize how often you touch your desk until you have a mic on your desk.

And then suddenly it's like, oh my goodness.

And you'll never hear that. You'll only hear that when you play it back.

You'll never notice it in live. So there's all these little things.

And you don't want it to be bothering you.

Like you don't want to be thinking, oh my, my, my, my mic is there.

I cannot touch it. Don't move that.

Like you don't want to be thinking about that while you're, while you're speaking.

You want to be in the moment talking to your audience.

So make the mic work for you. Yeah.

And that's, that's the other really important thing that you taught me really early on,

which I repeat all the time and will take to my grave,

is that the only thing you can't fix in post-production is passion.

That's the only thing you can't fix.

Jen has taken a cup off the table for me for a video.

And this is before AI. It's amazing the things that they can do,

but they can't fix a lack of energy, a lack of connection.

That human connection has got to be the most important thing.

There are so many things we can fix these days,

but that there's nothing, there's nothing to replace that.

So you, you taught me that early. That's the whole point of the video.

Give me the whole cup to appear.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's why we're doing that and not text.

But yeah, the whole point of the video, like that is the goal is that connection

is, is getting across that passion and getting your,

getting your audience is excited about whatever you're talking about as you

are and everything needs to serve that.

So yeah, I mean, we can fix bad sound. We can, with AI,

even without AI actually, even like, it's amazing.

So everything is fixable.

Make sure you're coming towards this or coming into your project,

into your speaking, into your project task,

like 100% grounded and centered and talking to your audience and loving it.

Like that's, that's what they need to see in here.

Yeah. And Nessie, you know, we like humans.

You don't have to be perfect at all.

You can be very messy and people love it because that's,

that's part of being human. So, so that's,

so that's one of the main principles of this sound.

The other one is lighting the,

and then three and four are frame compositions.

So like how, what, where you are in your frame,

you don't want to be one of these.

And also we're, we're,

we're using set deck as a separate from frame composition.

You could put them together if you wanted to.

The set deck is essentially what's behind you,

what you're wearing, that kind of thing.

Yeah. We kind of shuffled a whole lot into set deck.

The set deck was kind of like, oh yeah, all the physical things.

So, so yeah, just to make it not distracting is the main thing.

Well, and this is the thing, right?

It doesn't need to be, there's a,

there's a bare minimum and there's a pie in the sky.

And when you were helping me with my home studio,

you were like, you know, a blank walls. Okay.

As long as you're lit, as long as we can hear you and see you.

Your, your background is, it's not helping.

And yeah, sure. It's not, I mean,

you're out in the garden right now. It's gorgeous.

You've got some, some real, real daylight on your face.

You know, those kinds of things are luxurious and they're wonderful,

but they're not necessary in order to get your message out.

So know what your baseline is and know what your goal state is.

Absolutely. But you don't need to wait for your goal state.

You can start very, very simple.

So Jen, talk to me about like,

what are the biggest challenges when it comes to editing someone?

So we're talking about someone who's speaking on video.

Let's talk about solo first because they're official.

Like interviews are a whole other thing,

but let's talk about solo episodes first.

So if I'm talking by myself and there's no one else around,

it's just me.

What are the biggest challenges that you have as an editor when someone

comes to you and they, they haven't worked with you yet.

They haven't, they haven't strategized with you.

So what are the biggest kind of beginner mistakes that people make?

Well, when you're solo and you're talking to the camera, it's you.

Like the audience only has you to focus on and you have to keep their engagement.

You have to keep them on the eyes on you, like listening to you,

comprehending what you're saying.

And so stuff like, like looking down at my notes and then looking back up,

like it doesn't, you know, you might think it's, oh,

I just glanced away for a second.

The audience is like, well, no, they turned their whole body away

and then came back.

In that moment, like in that moment,

you've lost them and you've got to keep, you've got to keep them engaged.

You've got to keep the eye contact going.

You've got to be in your presence and,

and really connecting with them the entire time.

So that kind of thing is one of the main things is just keeping that connection.

So for not all people who are beginning to do an entire video,

start to finish in one take.

So what is your advice?

It's like, oh, I like to do it.

I call them one take wonders.

I love them, but it's not how everyone does it.

So what are your, what is your advice for people who,

you know, how I feel about scripts for people who want to stay on the script

or who don't know, they don't know how to get through a whole episode

without stopping and starting.

What's your advice for that?

A couple of things.

Okay.

If you need no, I understand that I'm a person who,

when I do a long, a long thing, I need a couple of notes just to keep myself,

like, okay, keep moving it.

This is the next point.

So you want to, you want to film a wide shot.

You want to get a back from the camera as much as you can.

And you want to stick your notes.

Like, where's my camera right there?

You want to stick your notes like right about there.

So that if you have to glance away, you're not going too far off that camera.

They're right there.

They're not going to notice the subtle shift.

And if you're back far enough, they're going to notice it even less.

The closer you are to the camera, the more your eyes move

and the more they notice that you're losing contact with that.

So the further back you are, the less that eye shift is going to notice.

And then it also gives you the ability to punch in later in the editing.

So yeah.

So when you're editing, you're like this, this like medium kind of shot.

But when you punch into the editing, you're going to punch into a closer shot,

say head and shoulders sort of thing.

And you can do that in any editing software.

And it's useful in that it breaks up your video a little bit.

And it's useful also if you're talking about something that's really important.

Or I really want to like the part where you could naturally lean in in a conversation

to say this is something that we really want to focus on here.

Well, that's where you cut into your head and shoulders shot

because that's the lean in in editing.

So you're using editing as a storytelling tool to actually like,

again, focus on the whole point of this video, which is what you're saying.

This is excellent.

I love that you brought this up.

So punching in for those of you who are like, what does she mean?

It's like zooming in, but you do it afterwards.

So you're not physically zooming in and out with the camera while you're filming.

The camera is stable and steady and you are stable and steady.

And in post-production you zoom in.

You do need a high resolution in order to do this.

You do need a bit more space in order to do that.

And a lot of podcasters, you know, people are podcasting here

and that is limiting because you can't, then you can't punch in and out.

Punching in and out is my favorite thing that Jen taught me

because it conceals all sorts of mistakes that you can hide

when you're punching in and out.

But I want you to tell me, you talk about storytelling editing.

There is a difference between fixed editing and storytelling editing.

Can you tell me the difference?

Those are two different things.

Yeah, well, I mean, fixing is when you've screwed up

and you want to like maybe do...

Oops, I don't do it.

I just happened here and had like a total like, you know,

stared off into the distance for five seconds

trying to remember what I was going to say next so they can't remember.

And you need to cut that out.

So you're like, okay, can I go back a little bit?

Maybe think about what you've just said.

Or if you planned this, you would hopefully have points in your video

where you're like, this is where I'm going to like break

or this is where I really want to...

You want to think about that beforehand.

I want to punch into a closer shot now

or closer to a further shot for this section.

So you kind of know where your edits are going to be.

So then when it's time to go back

and it's helpful when you need to fix it too

because then you can go back to one of those points

that's going to be a natural edit

and you just start saying it.

You have a little overlap, say, I don't know.

And that's why the sky is green.

And then when you start the next one,

and that's why the sky is green.

This is why it's right, you know, whatever.

And you want to plan in that overlap

to be in the same pose,

maybe doing the same movement with your hand or whatever

just to give it a cut-on motion.

And when you do a cut-on motion,

you cut right about here, say.

So in the wide shot, you go from here.

In the close shot, let's do a closer shot,

you'd finish it.

And your eye, the viewer's eye

is naturally drawn to the movement,

and it'll feel totally wrong.

But they won't notice if your head's a little bit,

because you're never going to get it perfect.

But the little imperfections

in between the two shots that you just filmed

is going to get covered by this little motion

or this motion or whatever you want to do.

The cut-on motion will save you there.

So yeah, you can, yeah.

Yeah, no, this is the art of the pickup.

So we're pickup artists, that's what we are.

This is so important.

And this is advanced, okay?

This is an advanced skill for a speaker.

However, it makes you so easy to edit.

So plan before you...

I like to think of these paragraphs.

So plan your paragraphs.

So maybe I have five sections to my talk

or I have three sections to my talk

or I have seven sections to my talk.

And if possible, do each of those sections

in one take.

So I can talk for five minutes about where I came from

or I can talk for five minutes about topic one.

And I know I can do that all in one take.

And then this is what Jen is talking about, the overlap.

You want to finish that completely.

And this is the hardest thing, I think,

the discipline of this,

is to not look away when your brain is finished

but to let your body finish speaking

and then pause for a second and then look away.

There are so many speakers who are like,

thank you so much.

And the sound is still traveling.

You have to wait to go, thank you so much.

And then you stop.

And you have...

I count to two.

I do whatever I'm doing.

I finish and I count to two.

And I freeze because it is so difficult

and I have to edit myself.

So difficult to go, you know,

and that's why I said this.

Was I going to say this?

Oh, yeah.

And that's why I said this.

Except I looked away the first time.

So now I'm screwed.

So, you know, those kind of little things.

So you got to make it overlap.

And so ideally the end of the last paragraph overlaps

at the beginning of the next paragraph.

So you typically know what you just said.

Hopefully you can remember.

You said, and that's what I said.

Okay, so I did this with my fingers.

So when you pick up, when you've taken your break,

you've looked at your notes,

you can take half an hour's break.

It's the magic of cinema.

When you come back,

you remember kind of was my head to the side

or was it in the middle or whatever.

I'm going to do my next paragraph.

And that's what I said.

And then I go into my paragraph.

Because like you said, cut on motion.

If your hands are moving,

they're going to be moving the right way.

So if my hands were moving in,

and now they're moving out.

That doesn't work.

But if my hands were moving in

and they stop at the same place

and then they're moving out,

it takes a lot of vigilance.

This is an advanced skill.

But it makes your videos a million times better.

It makes so much better.

If you can.

But this is for solo.

Because trying to do this with a guest is almost impossible.

A guest is trying to do it all one time.

Just do it all one time.

It's not possible to do this with a solo.

But for a solo episode,

I love what you said.

Do you have anything?

Do you have an approach?

Either way, I do this when I'm an editor.

But when you're editing,

do you decide the story edits first

or the fixed edits first?

How do you approach this?

Because some people do jump cuts.

Some people do.

I do edits once every minute or two.

There's different editing styles.

How do you decide which editing styles you use on a speaker?

Well, hopefully I've talked over with the speaker

just to get an idea of their brand

and how they work,

how they want this to come across.

And assuming it's continuity,

I want this to look like it was all in one take sort of thing

as opposed to the jump cut thing.

The jump cuts makes it easier,

but it also calls attention

to the fact that you're doing video.

It takes away from the connection

because you're having your focus broken

every time this weird cut happens

and it's jarring.

It adds energy,

but it breaks the connection.

And once you commit a jump cut,

the whole video has it.

You can't do just one or two jump cuts.

It's like you're doing the whole video

cutting every five to 20 seconds

or like five to 10 seconds or not.

You can't do a couple and then leave it.

Yeah, unless they're for like an extremely specific effect,

but yeah, totally.

But let's stick with sticking with the continuity editing.

I mean, basically I would sit there

and watch the entire thing first

just to get a sense of,

okay, where is this coming from?

Where is this going?

Where do we maybe want to have some cuts

where we can fix it a little bit here and there or something?

Oh, here's where she's like,

really, this is an important part,

make a note of this time code.

This is where we need to cut in.

So I'll go through it.

Like if I've never actually seen it before

and have no idea what she's talking about

and kind of make those notes

and then start thinking,

okay, so from here to here,

we probably want to be cutting in.

Okay, this is the part where

we really need to have some kind of edit there

to fix that or whatever.

And this is the part.

So once I've kind of got my time codes,

then I can figure out

a little bit of editing around that.

And if the person has done the planning ahead

with cuts on motion and sort of thing,

I can work that in there, too,

to see where those cuts were supposed to be

and then start cutting.

So there's a bit of planning and looking

and actually figuring out what the video itself calls for

before you actually start chopping it up.

Yeah.

And for me, I prefer to edit podcasts,

especially, as little as possible.

When there are edit fixes,

when there are fixed edits,

then sometimes you have to add some storytelling edits in

just so that the fixed edits aren't too obvious.

Or if there's like, you know,

the two mistakes from the beginning

and then there's nothing at the end,

that feels unbalanced,

so you've got to balance it out.

So there's that kind of feel to it.

But, yeah, I find that understanding how this works,

how your editor is looking at you

and how they're editing you,

really helps me as a speaker

because there are certain bad habits that I have,

like looking away before I was finished speaking,

that were so difficult to edit and made bad videos.

Let's be honest.

And there's still a few things.

For the people who say that we can't tell if they're reading,

what do you have to say to those people?

We can tell if you're reading.

You're going...

If you're reading your script when you're up there,

you're going internally.

You're focused on words

and remembering what those letters are

and you're getting them in the right order.

You're not focused on...

Yeah, that too, if you're doing the thing.

You need to have the connection.

You need to be engaged with the audience,

not engaged with the text.

There's a certain point where you just have a conversation

with the audience,

whether they're in the room with you or not,

and let it fly.

And this is a really good point

because I think a lot of people when they're doing solo episodes,

it's easier when you're doing interviews.

You have someone to talk to and it's easier to be relaxed.

And a solo episode, it's really hard

because it's just you and your camera.

And Jen, we didn't talk a lot about Jen's experience,

but you've traveled the world doing interviews,

like recorded interviews.

She is an expert in doing interviews straight to the camera,

so not sitting next to someone doing a chat show with you

but getting a solo interview from people.

What is your best advice for people

who are struggling to make eye contact with the lens?

They've got so much struggling.

They feel so much like cardboard when it's just them.

What is your advice for that?

Because I know you've had to relax.

You're very good when you're behind the camera.

You're very good at giving face-to-face questions

and helping people relax.

But when they're alone, what can they do?

It's hard.

It is hard, and I don't have an airplane going over my head,

so that always might get a bit much.

He's alive.

He's good.

Your zoom felt is pretty amazing, actually.

I can't hear it.

Yeah, okay. Is it better now?

Yes.

Okay, I couldn't hear myself.

I think I couldn't hear you.

Oh, wow.

When I get behind the camera

and I've got somebody in front of the camera

who's nervous and doesn't like being there,

and I totally get it.

I detest being in front of the camera myself.

I get, again, find out where your little lens is,

and I would get right behind it

so that they would see my eye kind of right over the lens.

And I'd just...

Yeah, exactly.

And I would just respond to them

and just, like, yeah, keep going.

Nothing verbal.

You've got to just have the connection,

and you've really got to bring that out

as much as you can in that pantomime kind of thing,

because you can't make any noise back there.

So if you're just starting out,

and that's one of your biggest worries,

you just can't get yourself in front of the camera.

You're just stuck on that, bring in a friend,

and just have them stand behind the camera

and talk to them,

and, you know, take them out for a drink afterwards

if you have to.

You can even do that on Zoom, like spotlight yourself

so that they're not on the video.

Yeah, that's true.

Talk to them.

I mean, you want to look at that lens, not at their face,

but why not?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

And then once you're getting a bit more comfortable

and you don't need the actual person responding,

then even just having, like, a picture or something,

like a little heart, like, some of that makes you feel happy.

Put it next to the lens,

and then you're talking to your little heart.

I love the flower in your glasses.

Like, put the flower next to it.

Put something next to it that reminds you

that this is supposed to be fun,

and this is what you're supposed to be talking to,

and you're supposed to be having a good time doing it,

because if you're not having a good time,

your audience will probably not be having a good time.

So make it easy on yourself as much as you possibly can.

Can you speak?

This is a bit more in the delivery portion,

but can you speak to relationship?

Because I think this is the thing,

because I know you film a lot of interviews,

you film a lot of, like, social media

and, you know, small business kind of stuff.

The difference between kind of talking to a void

and talking to a real human being,

even if they're not there, that relationship,

can you talk to that? Can you speak to that?

Yeah, I mean, it's critical.

It's really hard,

and it's one of the hardest things,

just, I mean, now you've got cameras,

or, sorry, now you've got phones,

or, you know, your webcam or whatever,

but, like, back in the day,

it was just like this giant circular kind of lens

you were talking to in the black little box.

And it was, it's hard because you're talking to a machine,

and it's, you know,

it's really, really important to remember

that there's somebody on the other side of that,

and that you're speaking to them,

and that they're understanding you

when they're in the same boat,

and you are connecting with them.

It's just that the connection will happen

after you finish speaking.

Like, yeah.

Yeah, this is a very kind of FaceTime thing.

I mean, and I have a lot of tricks

that I use with my clients.

One of the things that I say is,

you're speaking through the camera, not to the camera.

Yeah, like, your audience is there,

and they are responding.

You just can't see.

Yeah.

And that's also important,

but holding them in your mind is so important.

Yeah.

You got to speak with the confidence of, like, a radio DJ

who's in the same kind of boat.

Hello, everyone.

And today we're doing...

I want to see a late night DJ.

So, for interviews, when you're doing...

So, we've been talking a lot about solo,

because really, that's where the control comes,

the editing control comes, is in solo episodes.

And that's where you can really shine, as well.

You can make them a little bit more high quality.

You can, like, you know, more heavily edit a solo episode

and punch in and punch out and all that kind of thing.

When you're doing an interview,

especially if you're doing it through something like Zoom,

something like this, exactly like this,

you're limited in how much you can do.

Unless you're going to be swapping between speakers,

if you're going to have them next to each other all the time,

there's only so much, like, putting together you can do,

because any cut is going to be obvious.

Unless you switch between speakers,

but that's a lot of work.

Now, you've got a lot of editing going on.

What do you think?

Any advice on how to make interviews easier?

Well, I can make them more difficult,

but it will be easier in the editing.

It's like, where do you want your difficulty?

Do you want your difficulty in the editing?

Or do you want it in the film?

Well, let's assume that this person...

No, we want both.

We want both.

I want options.

I want options, Dan.

If I have a lot of money to pay an editor,

I want to know what that option is.

And if I don't have a lot of money to pay an editor,

I'm doing it myself, I want to keep it very simple,

I want to know what that option is.

Tell me both.

If you've got nothing and you don't have any money to put to it

and you're just starting out, then yeah,

I mean, just putting the Zoom call up there is a start.

But if you want to go all out and make it look really cool,

you want to have as many cameras as you can.

So you ideally...

Yeah, I know.

You ideally want to be recording both Zoom calls.

So you've got a good, nice, clear image of just that person.

Of yourself and then your guests.

And then if you want to go crazier,

you can get your guests to take their camera,

like their phone, and stick it to the side or up here

so they're getting a second shot.

And it works better too if they have a nice background and stuff.

But you could then be getting an even better image from them

because they're getting it straight from their phone,

high quality, you're not getting all the Zoom crap.

So it's not quite going to be direct on...

Yeah, you're getting the angle shot.

So it's not going to be direct on the eyeline.

But it works.

I've done podcasts like that.

And it makes the editing a thousand times easier

because when you need the shot,

and somebody's over here fixing their hair

and somebody's over here scratching their ear

and you just need something else or something,

you can cut to...

And you do it with the podcaster as well

because you get their angle shot too.

And you can just have them looking nicely like,

oh, oh, and nodding or whatever.

And it might be coming from a totally different part of the interview,

but you're not getting that I'm scratching my ear

and I'm fixing my hair at the same time stuff.

This is Dina.

So we did something kind of similar before,

and I've had to come back to Zoom because tech problems.

But when I have a good enough internet connection

and I'm like, the person I was talking to

had a good enough internet connection,

we would record on Riverside or something similar

because then you're recording your sound separately.

You're recording your video input.

Everything is being recorded as a separate track.

So you can mix it all together, which makes it a lot easier.

You can have one person and then you can have two people.

And then you can...

If the sound's out of whack, you can fix it.

If there was a glitch in the internet, it fixes that.

Like, it's really amazing.

So there's a lot of control there.

But what you're saying now is having a forward angle

and a side angle, essentially, for both speakers.

And that is...

I've blown my mind this genius

because now we're talking about chat show level.

Yeah, I mean, this is gonna look really snazzy.

It's gonna look good.

It's really nice, too.

If you have...

Like, if you design your own kind of match,

for lack of a better word.

So you're putting your Zoom...

Like, you've got one Zoom...

Where's my camera?

So you've got one Zoom person on this side

and one Zoom person on this side.

It's usually just two boxes, right?

But you can create, like, you know, something in Canva

that just is...

You can make both of those guys a little bit smaller.

You can put your text of your podcast at the very bottom.

You can make it look all happy and just, you know, branded.

And then you can kind of, like, cut in those side angles.

And they're a lot less jarring

because they're part of the branded kind of thing

that you've created.

The boxes go inside, if that makes sense.

You're a genius, Jen.

I love this.

I love this so much.

Then, of course, you just have to get them

to send it to you, which is, you know,

I have another different day.

And I often do this when I'm speaking,

is I'll have my phone...

I'll do a speaking event

and I'll do it on my computer

and I'll have my phone just behind it

recording a slightly different angle

because sometimes they don't give me the material.

Obviously, I'm not going to publish it, necessarily,

if they've got it behind a paywall.

But just for me, so that I can grow and I can learn

and I've got that for archival purposes.

I do that a lot.

So that is such a smart idea.

Oh, I love it.

I come from...

You need at least three cameras

when you're filming a two-person interview

in real life, not through Zoom.

So it's kind of like, well, how do you start

adding more cameras to Zoom?

You ask your guests to bring another one.

Everyone's got a camera lying around.

Everyone's got a phone.

Everyone's got a phone.

Yeah, these days, all the phones

are such high-resolution.

Sometimes your phone camera's better

than your computer camera, you know?

So there's that as well.

I'm loving this.

So we've gotten very advanced.

We've gotten very dull and whistled

with the editing.

If someone is just starting out,

they're doing a podcast.

They're nervous.

They've got lots to think about.

What is the minimum that they need

in order to start and look professional?

I mean, looking professional is so...

Overrated.

I mean, okay, not like,

I'm so snazzy kind of professional.

I meant more kind of production

quality professional, like,

to be able to be heard and seen

in a way that isn't distracting

and going to make someone go,

oh, I can't listen to this.

Yes, yes.

That's what I mean.

That's what I mean by professional.

I mean, good enough to listen to.

That's good enough.

We'll go back to the four things.

You need some kind of microphone

that's going to make it easy to hear you.

It's going to cut out any background

noise that might come along.

You need to be lit.

Preferably lighting you

and not your background or, you know,

keeping you.

Yeah.

So your background is not going to distract.

And that comes in with the set deck as well.

So your background should also be,

whatever's in the background

should be not distracting.

Keep it simple.

Simple, better than exciting.

Yeah.

And then composition.

I mean, basically just, you know,

you got a head and shoulder shot

or you got like,

kind of a medium shot.

You've got maybe a little bit of

headroom like that.

You don't want to,

you don't want to be down like this.

I'm talking to up like,

like you just.

So you don't want to look up my nose.

Oh, okay.

What?

So yeah, the four kind of basic things

you need are mainly just.

That's not going to distract

from your engagement with the audience

and the story that you're telling,

really.

I think that's the hardest thing

is just to keep it simple,

because we want,

we want to get all fancy,

but actually sometimes getting fancy

can really detract.

It's often better just to be so simple.

What is your,

what are your thoughts between

standing up and sitting down

for something like a podcast

or solo?

Like I'm usually,

standing up usually.

But if you're going to be there

for an hour,

like I was actually like contemplating today.

Should I be standing?

I feel like I should be standing,

but I don't know how long

this is going to go for today.

We chat a long time.

Well, what I do when I do my solo shows,

if I'm standing,

I take breaks in between,

because again,

like as long as I know where I am,

that's another thing

you can use your composition for,

is when I'm not so much like this,

but even here,

like I know that I'm kind of like

at the end of the chair,

I've got, you know,

I've got that thing there.

So my shoulders are

between these two pieces

and I know that my head is kind of

covering that line.

So when you come back,

you can find yourself in your frame,

you can use your composition,

you can use little markers

to help you be like,

where was I?

I don't know.

Oh, well, my head was this high

and I was,

I was touching these things.

And that really helps you,

because you can take a break,

you can go have a snack,

you can have a lie down

and then come back

and do a bit more.

Yeah, because it's magic.

You can just cut it together.

As long as your makeup's still good

and your hair still looks

kind of similar.

Yeah, so you need a microphone.

If you're doing solo shows,

you can use, you know,

or if you're doing any shows,

you can use,

just find a microphone

that works for you.

Ideally a headset

if you're doing interviews,

because it just makes your life

so much easier.

I know a lot of people like,

oh, I don't want to be seen

in a headset.

I get used to it.

It looks great.

Stop laughing about your vanity.

But, so headsets for sure.

You can absolutely use

a desk microphone

or a shotgun mic.

They're usually more expensive

and they usually require more awareness

of your surroundings.

So that's the only thing.

Lighting, you gotta be,

this, not that,

this, not that.

Yeah, background's simple.

And use your background

to help you kind of know

where you are.

And then as far as,

you haven't even really talked

about what to talk about.

But do you have any ideas

for people to just help

kind of stay on track

or know, like,

how do I know what's interesting

to my audience?

How do I know?

They're just throwing things.

I think we didn't talk about

something that we talked about.

They're like,

yeah, one last thing for you.

Ha ha ha.

You know, when people are

stuck for ideas

or they're not sure

what they want to say is relevant

or they don't know

what to talk about,

do you have any ideas for that?

You've given me some,

some really good advice

over the years.

Well, thank you.

So we can pull some out now.

I mean,

what you're curious about

and what you're interested in,

if you're like, really,

like you want to know,

you're going to make your audience

want to know.

Because if that curiosity comes out

and you tell them right off the bat,

I'm really interested in this

because of this

or like this and this and this.

They'll be like,

what?

Tell me more.

Like, you know,

if you're,

if you're talking to them

and you're connecting to them

and again,

it's hard to do

because it's just a camera

to start with.

But you got to,

you got to believe

that you're going to put it up online

and it's going to connect to somebody

and it will

because there's always

somebody out there

who's also going to be interested,

or about the same things

or passionate about the same things

you are.

And,

Oh, no,

keep talking.

No,

keep going.

Yeah,

if you're coming from

what interests you

and what makes you tick

and what really like

gets you fired up

and excited,

then you're going to find your tribe,

you're going to find your group,

your people,

and they're also going to

get fired up

and excited about that too.

yeah,

I guess that's the only

advice.

If you're looking,

if you're not too sure

like what to talk about

because there's

distractions are everywhere.

Like there's a thousand things

to choose from these days.

Make it something that actually

you care about,

not just in the moment,

but you're going to care about it

tomorrow and the next day.

And it's something that,

you know,

is really actually deep for you.

That would be

good advice.

Good advice.

And Jen,

if I have five ideas,

how many videos should I make?

How many ideas per video?

Just one idea for video.

And if you have an idea,

don't like let yourself

get distracted to another idea

that part went through.

You want short,

I mean,

it depends on the type of video

you're making,

but in general,

I would say you wanted to make

it as short as possible.

You want it to be as concise

as possible.

You want to cover that idea

that you're talking about

in depth and like,

as well as you can,

but without branching off

because those branches

just are the next videos

that you do.

You want to make them

click the next one

and click the next one

because that also,

you know,

is them engaging with you

and getting more interested in you.

As opposed to sitting there

for two hours and getting bored.

You know,

they want you,

they want to sit there for two minutes

and then,

oh, that was,

wow, I'm not done yet.

Let's see what the next one says.

Oh, wow.

And then four hours go by

and I haven't even noticed

the time has gone by

because they're always

continuously saying,

I want more.

You know,

so it's a very,

keep them short,

keep them focused

and then that'll keep your audience

coming back for more.

Yeah.

Like everybody,

we're commitment-phobic.

So we want to make smaller commitments

and do a lot of them

than one big commitment.

And it's a little bit different

with podcasting

because sometimes people want

half an hour,

an hour to,

you know,

on their drive or whatever.

But even so,

keep it,

there's nothing wrong

with doing two,

fifteen,

if you're,

especially if you're doing a solo show,

two fifteen minute episodes,

they can listen to two fifteen

minute episodes

instead of one thirty minute.

It's fine.

Podcasts are different

because they do range

and, you know,

if we're talking about making content

for something like YouTube,

we want to keep it usually

a lot shorter.

But the cool thing is,

like, especially if you do a range,

then people get to choose

and the commitment folks

will watch the shorter ones

until they,

until they're ready

to watch the longer ones.

And then the people who want

longer ones can do that too.

And you,

it's nice to give people choice,

I think,

when it comes to that kind of thing.

What do you think?

Yeah,

I guess also like an idea

or a concept

can take two hours

to really go through it in depth.

So it depends on,

on what you're talking about.

If you're going to do a long video,

choose a big concept,

choose a big idea.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, this has been so helpful

and I kind of,

kind of wanted to do like a worksheet

to go with this

because there's so much

that we've learned

so much about,

I really recommend looking

for this again

because we sped through

some of those tips,

especially on how to do pickups.

How to do pickups

is such a huge,

huge skill as a speaker.

How to,

how to stop

and let that everything land

before you move away.

How to come back

and have a second

before you start again

because also you don't want to,

you don't,

you don't want to muddy

anything with movement

and it's amazing how

unconscious we are

of what our body is doing.

So,

you know,

you have to start becoming

very physically aware

of what your body is doing.

It's not just your voice.

If,

if,

if visuals are a thing,

if you're not doing

an audio only podcast,

it's not just your voice.

Even then,

you don't want to move away

from the microphone

too soon.

Even then,

I think it's the best practice.

There's so many little things like that.

Jen has just sped through

a lot of gold here.

So I really would recommend

to listen to this episode

again,

take some notes

or go through the transcripts

and like highlight stuff

because there is enough information

in this episode

to understand how

the tech part of your world works

to make you,

like,

television-level production

if you wanted to do that.

You have enough information now

to do that

just from this conversation.

So I would really recommend

to listen to this again

and Jen,

you are a wealth of information.

I know that you are,

you're based in Vancouver

but you do work

around the world, right?

So what is it like to,

it's just for anyone

who wants to work with you quick.

What is it like to work with you?

How do we find you?

Do you have a gift for everybody?

Like,

I didn't even ask you all those questions

before we started.

I didn't get to,

I would jump on it.

UpForStoryFilms.com

is how you can find me.

We have pivoted quite a bit

to doing animation.

So if you see it animation heavy

on that website,

that is why.

Though I'm,

I mean,

shoot me an email

JenAtUpForStoryFilms.com

if you have questions

or anything about

speaking and podcasting

and on camera,

that kind of,

anything,

anything we've talked about here,

really, I'm happy to answer.

I will say,

I guess,

just what you were saying there,

one thing,

to kind of drill it all down

to like,

somebody who's just starting out

and is like,

overwhelmed by all of this.

That was a lot.

The most important thing

is just to get an objective idea

of how you're coming across on camera.

It's like what you were saying,

like looking away at the wrong time

or not,

you know,

not finishing your thing.

That's the most important thing

is being,

when you're in your video

and when you're speaking

and when you're trying

to get your point across

and your story across

is being engaged.

So as much as it's going to hurt,

sit there and watch yourself.

From somebody who did like

a public speaking event

and didn't watch herself

for like a year.

I know,

I know what the avoidance is like.

I feel your pain.

But I also know

that it's really important.

And if you can't do it

because I totally get that too.

Have a trusted friend sit there

and just say,

I want your objective criticism

on how I'm coming across on camera

and how I can make it better.

And see what they will say for you.

Like,

where you're breaking that engagement

or breaking that connection.

Because that's the most,

that's the thing we can't fix in post.

And I know these days

because of your family situation,

you're focused mostly on animation

and post production.

But if you are on the other,

even on the other side of the world

and you are maybe not in a place

where you can afford

to work with a team

or you're going to be doing your own production,

you're going to be doing your own editing.

I would really recommend

paying for a strategy session with Jen

because she will talk to you through everything.

She's not going to try and sell you anything

because, you know,

especially if you're on the other side of the world.

But paying for a strategy session with her

because she helped me set up my home office,

like my home studio.

She has so much information that she can just,

if you need a professional consultant

to just kind of give you a second opinion

about if you feel like,

I have to think of doing this,

what do you think?

The amount of wealth and wisdom,

wealth of wisdom,

wealth of wisdom that is in here

between those two ears of hers

is so much.

So definitely,

if you have any questions

and it's not available on this podcast

or, you know, around on YouTube,

invest in an hour of her time

because it will change your game.

It will up-level you so much.

And you may not be able to implement it all straight away.

Again, remember,

you've got a minimum viable product

and then we grow into our goals.

But knowing where you're going

and knowing what is possible,

it can really, really make a huge difference for you.

And just how long lived your content is,

how easy it is to consume,

how pleasant it is to consume,

all of those things make a big difference.

So I would really recommend,

just, yeah, just do it.

Do it.

Get some help early on.

Get some like professional advice

because it will set you up for success for years.

I am still implementing advice.

I am still planning on implementing advice.

Jen gave me,

and we have been inclusive with each other for like 10 years.

And there's still some things that I'm like,

I'm not there yet.

But when I get there,

I'm going to do this thing that Jen said.

And I have a library of her advice in my head.

Thank you.

Yeah.

She loves it really good stuff all the time.

And I'm like standing behind you taking notes.

So we're going to end this podcast.

Jen, do you have any final words of wisdom

or encouragement for shy,

nervous, possibly procrastinating content creators

out there?

Yeah.

I mean, we've all,

we've all been,

I hate being in front of the camera.

I'm not even comfortable.

But I mean,

just start.

Just, just start.

Even if you're not showing it to like strangers yet,

just start.

Just get in front of the camera and stand there.

Just look at it for a while.

Just start and make it a muscle memory.

Just, just get in front.

And then, I don't know,

start talking randomly,

telling stories like just, just, just start.

And then eventually you'll get past that

and you'll be able to start getting into

the videos that you want to make.

And I mean,

take it around any corner you have to

but like, you know, just, just start

and take those little baby steps,

whatever baby steps needed to take to get there

because everybody's got stuck on something

and it's just a matter of like

convincing yourself that,

yeah, you can do this

and there's somebody out there

who wants to hear your stuff.

You just gotta take the steps

that start to get it out there.

And it's usually the shy ones

who have the most to say.

So if you are a little shy

or a little nervous,

there are so many people

who don't have a lot of gray matter

who are shouting their messages so loud,

we need to balance that out with your,

with your opinions and your message

and your passion.

So just get out there and do it.

Okay?

Yes.

Good.

Thank you so much, Jen.

This was so much fun.

It was.

Thank you.